Where do you pull the plug?
The fundamental truth about all recorded audio is that it can never equal a live perofmrnace. No matter how short or simply one makes the signal path, it will leave its sonic imprint on any media you care to name. Which in turn means that what we are hearing from a recorded media, be it vinyl or digital, is but an illusion.
To be sure, a very pleasant one, else we wouldn't be here. But it does make me wonder about the sense of buying outlandishly expensive components which cost say 10 times the cost of a decent piece of audio gear only to (possibly) relieve me of 1 or 2% of "The Veil", or the difference between recorded and live.
Ultimately, the question is: do we need to have the absolute truth to enjoy the music? And what are we listening to, the music or the gear? Obviously, to enjoy the music, we do need a credible system, but how credible is credible?
Where do you draw the line?
Views? Thoughts? Opinions?
Discussion started by Dejan V. Veselinovic , on 1029 days ago
@Lee
It seems we got our meanings a little crossed, Lee. I don't deny the importance of the chassis, quite to the contrary, but my point was that you do not need to appraoch the problem by throwing many kilos or pounds of metal at it. How about some applied physics? Mind over matter?
For example, my own Yamaha CDX 993 CD player is comparatively heavy for its price class, 21 lbs. It has to be, having two separate power transformers, separate power supplies for digital and analog, etc. That is audio substance. Obviously, at that level, Yamaha wanted a correspondingly good chassis as well, so they used a three layer, metal-synthetic compund-meta sandwich. Then they separated the power supply, drive meachanism and electronics into three compartments, where the metal sheets in between serve both to isolate and brace the case front to back. Then they used cross section braces, to brace the case left to right. Lastly, I put it om Norwegian made SoundCare spikes, using a triangular placement, which as any mechanical engeneer will tell you is the ideal distribution of forces. As you see, I do care.
I find such a reasonable approach much superior to the alternative, which might have been to use much thicker metal all round, wasting another say 10 lbs of aluminium for effectively the same result, but at a very much different price premium.
@Jack, Dean, at al.
Folks, please understand, I am not out to demean any single approach to audiophilia. It just seems to me that 30 years ago, audiophiles paid much less attention to the gear and much more to the music than it seems to me is the case today. Obviously, I could be wrong, but I just can't escape that feeling. Just look at the audio dedicated forums - the key question which absolutely dominates is: I've had it all, what should I buy now?
This makes me wonder - if people dedicate so much time to buying new gear, and assuming they have to work for a living, when do they listen to music? And over the years, it wasn't only once that I was shocked to discover many an owner of very expensive gear owning just a few CDs, all of which are mentioned in one magazine or another as their choice in testing gear. All of which makes me think he uses them only to evaluate gear.
If it makes them happy, yeah, sure, why not, but I wonder how to justify calling them "audiophiles" when in fact it should be "gearphiles".
It seems we got our meanings a little crossed, Lee. I don't deny the importance of the chassis, quite to the contrary, but my point was that you do not need to appraoch the problem by throwing many kilos or pounds of metal at it. How about some applied physics? Mind over matter?
For example, my own Yamaha CDX 993 CD player is comparatively heavy for its price class, 21 lbs. It has to be, having two separate power transformers, separate power supplies for digital and analog, etc. That is audio substance. Obviously, at that level, Yamaha wanted a correspondingly good chassis as well, so they used a three layer, metal-synthetic compund-meta sandwich. Then they separated the power supply, drive meachanism and electronics into three compartments, where the metal sheets in between serve both to isolate and brace the case front to back. Then they used cross section braces, to brace the case left to right. Lastly, I put it om Norwegian made SoundCare spikes, using a triangular placement, which as any mechanical engeneer will tell you is the ideal distribution of forces. As you see, I do care.
I find such a reasonable approach much superior to the alternative, which might have been to use much thicker metal all round, wasting another say 10 lbs of aluminium for effectively the same result, but at a very much different price premium.
@Jack, Dean, at al.
Folks, please understand, I am not out to demean any single approach to audiophilia. It just seems to me that 30 years ago, audiophiles paid much less attention to the gear and much more to the music than it seems to me is the case today. Obviously, I could be wrong, but I just can't escape that feeling. Just look at the audio dedicated forums - the key question which absolutely dominates is: I've had it all, what should I buy now?
This makes me wonder - if people dedicate so much time to buying new gear, and assuming they have to work for a living, when do they listen to music? And over the years, it wasn't only once that I was shocked to discover many an owner of very expensive gear owning just a few CDs, all of which are mentioned in one magazine or another as their choice in testing gear. All of which makes me think he uses them only to evaluate gear.
If it makes them happy, yeah, sure, why not, but I wonder how to justify calling them "audiophiles" when in fact it should be "gearphiles".
Dejan, I agree, metal for metal's sake is just window dressing.
I was referencing some manufacturers that consider the chassis as an integral part of the deign, and devote great time, effort, and money to building the best possible environment for the electronics inside. Sometimes this involves a lot of metal, to allow constrained layer damping, and aggressive EMI/RFI abatement and shielding techniques. Plus, since they own their own CNC, they can build the chassis around the PCB, no matter what shape it is, and not have to worry about the PCB conforming to a standard chassis.
Peace,
Lee
I was referencing some manufacturers that consider the chassis as an integral part of the deign, and devote great time, effort, and money to building the best possible environment for the electronics inside. Sometimes this involves a lot of metal, to allow constrained layer damping, and aggressive EMI/RFI abatement and shielding techniques. Plus, since they own their own CNC, they can build the chassis around the PCB, no matter what shape it is, and not have to worry about the PCB conforming to a standard chassis.
Peace,
Lee
Chicken or the egg... when you say that..."It just seems to me that 30 years ago, audiophiles paid much less attention to the gear and much more to the music than it seems to me is the case today" well... 30 years ago there was not nearly as many products to buy. So perhaps the reason 'some' or 'many' people spend the time/money on gear is simply because there are so many more options to choose from in playing back one's music. Which does not justify the 'need' to do so... just perhaps a cause.
Good point Dave, for consumerism is at much higher levels for premium products in all sectors. Thirty years ago, people like my father raised by Depression traumatized parents would no more think of spending 30 K on a stereo than he would have having his head cryogenically frozen. Craziness! Most audiophiles I meet were products of the mid 50's through the 80s, where survival was reasonably assured, money was sometimes discretionary, and music was intertwined with culture to almost religious proportions. Some people make buckets of cash, some will never have the opportunity for a mortgage or the responsibilities for children so cash can be spend elsewhere, and others don't mind buying tons of stuff using someone else's borrowed cash (credit). Economic demographics provide the climate for those bank vault thick power amps Dejan is talking about. Charlatans feed on money and suckers in every corner, of course, and I wish I had Dejan's expertise to know whether or not I'm getting shafted by the millimeter for every extra layer of steel when making a purchase. Good thing many good folks who post here were studying their trigonometry while I was getting 69% on the exams and reading Ben Fong Torres in Algebra class!
Hehe... I was usually staring out the window daydreaming about whatever or staring at the pretty girl nearby and daydreaming about something very specific....
@Lee
All I can say is that I salute all those designers who realize that the case is an integral part of the product. Personally, to that end, I generally use aluminium cases, full copper bottoms, etc. To me it comes naturally, I am practically forced to reckon that way, in view of the fact that I make power line filters, or "conditioners", meaning I have 240 VAC running all over the place throughout the interior of the case. You can imagine what my worst nightmare is about.
@Dave Clark
Dave, 30 years ago was THE audio boom. We may not have had the sheer number of manufacturers as we do today, but we had a general atmosphere of much more serious equipment design and building than we have today, and I obviously refer to the lower and medium tiers. If you wish, I can send you some shots of the insides of my Marantz products from 1978, or my Harman/Kardon 6550 from 1993. You will see a build quality VERY rare in their current versions in their price classes.
In addition to which I would remind you that some quite outstanding manufacturers of yesteryear are no longer around, probably because they could not adjust to the new wave of total consumer goods. In the mid-60ie, you could phone up Fisher and actually talk to Mr Avery Fisher himself - try talking to the boss of Sony, Maranty, Denon or any of them these days. You could go out and buy a Craig receiver (does anybody beside myself even remember them?), which was "Designed in U.S.A., manufactured in Japan" even before Marantz, and have your mind blown by truly great sound for those days.
Those were the days of much more serious work and much less bull then these current ones. As evidenced by simple facts, such as that the old gear, when properly overhauled, stands comparison with modern stuff, and then some. Such as the fact that a modern day integrated amp, rated at say 70 WPC, these days weighs in at 7-8 kilos, and then weighed 12-14 kilos. And so forth.
@Dean Seislove
Dean, I'd just like to add a few facts of life to what you wrote, with which I agree. I live in a country where the average monthly salary is $400. Utility, rent and other bills eat up at least $150, which leaves a family to survive on $250 per month. That's $4.16 per person per day. These people are surely thinking about their next $100K power amp. To top it all, we're well of compared to most of the rest of humanity. The point being that as very much opposed to 30 years ago, High End audio today is for millionaires only, and even the mid range is today proportionally more expensive than it used to be.
If I lived in USA and made my living there in some propotion to what it is now, I would probably cherish the consumer society concept; since I live where I do, and since Europe is still a bit what it always was, I tend to think in longevity terms. Either I build it to last AT LEAST 20 years, or I don't build it at all. That's the way I am, and I have no intention of changing that. All my life, I have been taught that reliability and longevity were the initial cornerstones of whatever it is you are building, and that principle has stuck with me.
And I am not at all sure it's a wrong principle, given the way we are fast depleting our already scarce resources without a plan B.
All I can say is that I salute all those designers who realize that the case is an integral part of the product. Personally, to that end, I generally use aluminium cases, full copper bottoms, etc. To me it comes naturally, I am practically forced to reckon that way, in view of the fact that I make power line filters, or "conditioners", meaning I have 240 VAC running all over the place throughout the interior of the case. You can imagine what my worst nightmare is about.
@Dave Clark
Dave, 30 years ago was THE audio boom. We may not have had the sheer number of manufacturers as we do today, but we had a general atmosphere of much more serious equipment design and building than we have today, and I obviously refer to the lower and medium tiers. If you wish, I can send you some shots of the insides of my Marantz products from 1978, or my Harman/Kardon 6550 from 1993. You will see a build quality VERY rare in their current versions in their price classes.
In addition to which I would remind you that some quite outstanding manufacturers of yesteryear are no longer around, probably because they could not adjust to the new wave of total consumer goods. In the mid-60ie, you could phone up Fisher and actually talk to Mr Avery Fisher himself - try talking to the boss of Sony, Maranty, Denon or any of them these days. You could go out and buy a Craig receiver (does anybody beside myself even remember them?), which was "Designed in U.S.A., manufactured in Japan" even before Marantz, and have your mind blown by truly great sound for those days.
Those were the days of much more serious work and much less bull then these current ones. As evidenced by simple facts, such as that the old gear, when properly overhauled, stands comparison with modern stuff, and then some. Such as the fact that a modern day integrated amp, rated at say 70 WPC, these days weighs in at 7-8 kilos, and then weighed 12-14 kilos. And so forth.
@Dean Seislove
Dean, I'd just like to add a few facts of life to what you wrote, with which I agree. I live in a country where the average monthly salary is $400. Utility, rent and other bills eat up at least $150, which leaves a family to survive on $250 per month. That's $4.16 per person per day. These people are surely thinking about their next $100K power amp. To top it all, we're well of compared to most of the rest of humanity. The point being that as very much opposed to 30 years ago, High End audio today is for millionaires only, and even the mid range is today proportionally more expensive than it used to be.
If I lived in USA and made my living there in some propotion to what it is now, I would probably cherish the consumer society concept; since I live where I do, and since Europe is still a bit what it always was, I tend to think in longevity terms. Either I build it to last AT LEAST 20 years, or I don't build it at all. That's the way I am, and I have no intention of changing that. All my life, I have been taught that reliability and longevity were the initial cornerstones of whatever it is you are building, and that principle has stuck with me.
And I am not at all sure it's a wrong principle, given the way we are fast depleting our already scarce resources without a plan B.
Dejan, I plead guilty to viewing things through my limited perspective. I am aware of the relative standard of living, of course, but I'm certainly no expert on international trade, and confess that I am susceptible unintended provincialism. I suppose I was making an analysis from my porch and relying on the words of several manufacturers who told me that a large portion of their sales was in Europe and Asia, leading me to assume that some economics gains had been made worldwide (despite the increasing schism between the haves and have-nots globally). I do remember Craig auto stereos, but they weren't very good, so it's probably not the company that you're thinking of. I'm glad that you're concentrating on high quality and durability, values that I respect. My Luxman integrated is still chugging away, too, even though its nearly thirty-five years old. Can't say it sounds better than my current amplifiers, but then it wasn't the top of the line, either. Vintage vs. new gear. Corporate profiteering vs. engineering pride. Fair market value vs. wasteful extravagance--all issues that beset every commodity. Again, I don't have an engineering background, so I can't speak to any of these topics with any authority. Plenty of folks on this site who can offer qualified opinions, though, so I'll pay attention, and watch from the bleechers.
@Dean
Dean, please, no need for apologies. We all come from different backgrounds, lead different lives, and places like this are an ideal meeting point for personal views and ideas. Personally, I like to check out my own ideas and views in a mixed environment, it's a much needed feedback required to keep myself within reasonable limits.
You mention provincialism. 40 or 50 years ago, that may have been a serious issue with many Americans, but in these days of Internet and cheap airline tickets, I think that's not half the issue it was once, and I believe it's quickly losing its meaning. But even so, we can still learn much from each other. It all boils down to how one perceives the objective differences - for myself, I like to think differences make me richer, as they remind me that there's always a different take on something, and knowing it makes me intellectually richer. I don't have to agree with it, but I like to hear it.
Regarding your Luxman - have you had it overhauled? By that, I mean has it been taken apart, its switches and pots cleaned and reassembled, have the solder joints been inspected for possible rust and degrading, have the capacitors been changed? After 35 years, all that becomes a big issue. If you haven't, and still have and use that amp, I strongly urge you to have it done, fully aware that it's no small job and must cost a fair penny to have it done by a pro. However, I also feel that you would be surprised at what you'd hear once it's done. May not be better than what you have now, but it sure will be a lot closer.
As for audio, I would venture to say that the world market has changed in several ways. For a start, it is now as polarized as never before. It has split up into more or less the "low end', meaning consumer level electronics, mostly towards HT, and the High End. The middle is very much lacking, that part of the market splitting up with most leaning towards the High End, some went down and some trying to stay in the middle. The problem here is to draw the lines, where does one stop being itself and becomes the next class. A very arguable point. Personally, I take say $600 as the upper limit of the Low End, and say $2,000 as the crossover point towards what becomes the High End. But that's just me.
For another, the market has broadened. 35 years ago, Asia wasn't much of a market, but today it IS a very lucrative one. With the rise of the new economic powers, it is now a market nobody can afford to scoff at. With the advent of China as a rising economic superpower, both as a place for manufacturing and a consumer society, the rules of the game are changing lightning fast.
And lastly, the general trade practices in the world are changing very fast as well. New technologies are changing the audio industry. Once, it was a clear cut job, you had the manufacturer, the general importer and the dealers, but these days, more and more are turning towards the Internet as their prime sales venue. My own business is Internet based, yet it has enabled me to sell in 28 countries around the world. Totally unimaginable 40 years ago. And the single greatest challenge in world business in general. Today, you have companies refusing to sell via Internet, insisting you go to an authorized dealer, but my feeling is that the final solution will eventually be a mix of old and new, meaning one will have a general distributor who will trade via Internet AND the classic dealer. But again, that's just me. Right now, we are somewhere in between changes, in a still grey area where the old values no longer hold true, but a new system of values has not been installed yet.
Provincialism will as well. I just got back from an 8 day trip to Denmark, and let me tell you, in Copenhagen I must have seen an incredibly large number of US tourists. I was literally amazed at the number, but also very pleased to see it. It means provincialism is packing its bags, and in return, we will all be richer.
Dean, please, no need for apologies. We all come from different backgrounds, lead different lives, and places like this are an ideal meeting point for personal views and ideas. Personally, I like to check out my own ideas and views in a mixed environment, it's a much needed feedback required to keep myself within reasonable limits.
You mention provincialism. 40 or 50 years ago, that may have been a serious issue with many Americans, but in these days of Internet and cheap airline tickets, I think that's not half the issue it was once, and I believe it's quickly losing its meaning. But even so, we can still learn much from each other. It all boils down to how one perceives the objective differences - for myself, I like to think differences make me richer, as they remind me that there's always a different take on something, and knowing it makes me intellectually richer. I don't have to agree with it, but I like to hear it.
Regarding your Luxman - have you had it overhauled? By that, I mean has it been taken apart, its switches and pots cleaned and reassembled, have the solder joints been inspected for possible rust and degrading, have the capacitors been changed? After 35 years, all that becomes a big issue. If you haven't, and still have and use that amp, I strongly urge you to have it done, fully aware that it's no small job and must cost a fair penny to have it done by a pro. However, I also feel that you would be surprised at what you'd hear once it's done. May not be better than what you have now, but it sure will be a lot closer.
As for audio, I would venture to say that the world market has changed in several ways. For a start, it is now as polarized as never before. It has split up into more or less the "low end', meaning consumer level electronics, mostly towards HT, and the High End. The middle is very much lacking, that part of the market splitting up with most leaning towards the High End, some went down and some trying to stay in the middle. The problem here is to draw the lines, where does one stop being itself and becomes the next class. A very arguable point. Personally, I take say $600 as the upper limit of the Low End, and say $2,000 as the crossover point towards what becomes the High End. But that's just me.
For another, the market has broadened. 35 years ago, Asia wasn't much of a market, but today it IS a very lucrative one. With the rise of the new economic powers, it is now a market nobody can afford to scoff at. With the advent of China as a rising economic superpower, both as a place for manufacturing and a consumer society, the rules of the game are changing lightning fast.
And lastly, the general trade practices in the world are changing very fast as well. New technologies are changing the audio industry. Once, it was a clear cut job, you had the manufacturer, the general importer and the dealers, but these days, more and more are turning towards the Internet as their prime sales venue. My own business is Internet based, yet it has enabled me to sell in 28 countries around the world. Totally unimaginable 40 years ago. And the single greatest challenge in world business in general. Today, you have companies refusing to sell via Internet, insisting you go to an authorized dealer, but my feeling is that the final solution will eventually be a mix of old and new, meaning one will have a general distributor who will trade via Internet AND the classic dealer. But again, that's just me. Right now, we are somewhere in between changes, in a still grey area where the old values no longer hold true, but a new system of values has not been installed yet.
Provincialism will as well. I just got back from an 8 day trip to Denmark, and let me tell you, in Copenhagen I must have seen an incredibly large number of US tourists. I was literally amazed at the number, but also very pleased to see it. It means provincialism is packing its bags, and in return, we will all be richer.
Dejan, thanks for the insights, informative and well thoughtful, as always. Don't think I'll ever rework the Luxman. You never know, of course, but I'll probably just keep it around for reference or give it to a young person who needs an amp. As far as provincialism, I was only speaking of my personal brand, and didn't mean to cast aspersions on my compatriots. I've only been to England and France, but you're right about the broadening globalization of the world (although I'm sure that, for many, "foreign lands" can mean anyplace not in your own neighborhood). I agree with your price points about low end and high end audio, too, which tells you something about my own personal largesse!
There is a user on A'gon who uses the moniker "Ezekiel", he is a whiz at restoring older pieces of gear. I highly recommend him.
@Dean
Touche! :-)))))))
I must admit I had a grand time overhauling the Marantz, but notwithstanding that, I still maintain it will stand, and stand proud, against most modern newcomers. It may not better some of them, but the age difference will still be amazing. They knew then what does it take to make an excellent product. No wonder they were a legend way back then.
Regarding Craig, I didn't even know they made car audio. They were a small company at the time, offering, if memory serves, three receivers, and I just happened to audition their best model brough this way by a guy who lived in California for a while. My point is, it's quite possible that my view of them is skewed, because one swallow doth not a spring make. Also looked great, for those days, I mean.
At any rate, I seem to have found a spot where I pull the plug. For fun and everyday, it's vintage Marantz all the way, and when I feel the urge to get as near to the program material as possible, in comes the Karan. This leaves funds aside to be invested in software.
Please bear in mind that I am not really representative of anything but my own views, given that my speakers are the easiest dynamic speaker load I have ever even heard of. Nominally 8 Ohms, minimum 6.5 Ohms, worst case phase shift just -22 degrees, reasonably efficient at 92 dB/2.83V/1m. They are so clean a load that a nominally 5 Watt SET will drive them even i bit on the wilder side, and with a 15W tube job, you can easily go outlaw. Thus, ANY amplifier ever made will sound its best on them simply because they are such an easy load. Which is bad because I am unrepresentative, but is good because you really hear the amp at its best. Can't win 'em all.
But the pair of AR 94s in my son's room (overhauled, of course) will make amps sweat, while the JBL Ti 600 speakers in my wife's system is sort of in the middle. Any amp I comment on has to walk the three paths for me to have an opinion on it.
Touche! :-)))))))
I must admit I had a grand time overhauling the Marantz, but notwithstanding that, I still maintain it will stand, and stand proud, against most modern newcomers. It may not better some of them, but the age difference will still be amazing. They knew then what does it take to make an excellent product. No wonder they were a legend way back then.
Regarding Craig, I didn't even know they made car audio. They were a small company at the time, offering, if memory serves, three receivers, and I just happened to audition their best model brough this way by a guy who lived in California for a while. My point is, it's quite possible that my view of them is skewed, because one swallow doth not a spring make. Also looked great, for those days, I mean.
At any rate, I seem to have found a spot where I pull the plug. For fun and everyday, it's vintage Marantz all the way, and when I feel the urge to get as near to the program material as possible, in comes the Karan. This leaves funds aside to be invested in software.
Please bear in mind that I am not really representative of anything but my own views, given that my speakers are the easiest dynamic speaker load I have ever even heard of. Nominally 8 Ohms, minimum 6.5 Ohms, worst case phase shift just -22 degrees, reasonably efficient at 92 dB/2.83V/1m. They are so clean a load that a nominally 5 Watt SET will drive them even i bit on the wilder side, and with a 15W tube job, you can easily go outlaw. Thus, ANY amplifier ever made will sound its best on them simply because they are such an easy load. Which is bad because I am unrepresentative, but is good because you really hear the amp at its best. Can't win 'em all.
But the pair of AR 94s in my son's room (overhauled, of course) will make amps sweat, while the JBL Ti 600 speakers in my wife's system is sort of in the middle. Any amp I comment on has to walk the three paths for me to have an opinion on it.
At the other hand, I have listened to live music that sounds very poor due to bad equipment set ups. It is not always good electronics or speakers are used at live performances.
But if you would be allowed to listen to a recording session then that should be "better" or more "true" then my or any system could give, after all there is a path with various electronics between the signal and the listener.
What I would like to say is really just that live performances are NOT always better then your CD:s.
But if you would be allowed to listen to a recording session then that should be "better" or more "true" then my or any system could give, after all there is a path with various electronics between the signal and the listener.
What I would like to say is really just that live performances are NOT always better then your CD:s.
I have often pondered this question. At what point is sound quality good enough? How much am I willing to spend to get there? I have spent ~10K on my systems over the last 20 years (~90% of that in the last 5 years) and the money spent to enjoyment obtained ratio comes down to this for me; How does the equipment make the music feel? If equipment makes the music more emotionally available/enjoyable, then it's something I want. Per Dean's, Dave's, & others observation, I am bound by what I can afford. But money is the only external boundary I allow to influence my decisions when buying equipment.
I believe music is the voice of the soul and perhaps even the root way humans express their emotional core. If the equipment allows me to "hear" that emotional content; be it a slight waiver in the voice, the sharp draw of breathe before a howling note, the scratch of a fingernail (or even the ridges of the fingerprint) on a string, or the tap of a foot on the pedal for the bass drum.....I want to hear it!
I'm sure we would all agree for the most part, live is always preferable to recorded. I am fortunate enough to live near a city (Chicago) that affords me wide opportunities to hear live music of all kinds. But Live Music is not always a great experience, as Per of Sweden noted. I went to a KT Tunstall concert at the VIC Theater in Chicago in Nov. 2007. The crowd was noisy and intoxicated. There was a gaggle of teenage girls 2 meters behind me who were more interested in what she was wearing and how "Hunky" her bass player was than listening to her performance. It totally ruined the experience for me. Thankfully, I was able to go home and listen to her Acoustic Extravaganza CD and be content that I SAW her live even if I did not get to HEAR her live.
Naturally I want my equipment to achieve as close to live as possible. But if it relays the emotional content to me, I don't care if it costs $100 or $10,000 I will try my best to get it.
By the way.... almost every piece of equipment I own was purchased on the used market and after careful study/listening at many high end shops. I am grateful to those who can afford to spend many thousands of dollars on equipment that pushes the musical/listening envelope. When they sell it for a fraction of its original price to poor audiophiles like me, I get a chance to experience that innovation and great resulting sound. I couldn't manage to have the systems I do without them!
I believe music is the voice of the soul and perhaps even the root way humans express their emotional core. If the equipment allows me to "hear" that emotional content; be it a slight waiver in the voice, the sharp draw of breathe before a howling note, the scratch of a fingernail (or even the ridges of the fingerprint) on a string, or the tap of a foot on the pedal for the bass drum.....I want to hear it!
I'm sure we would all agree for the most part, live is always preferable to recorded. I am fortunate enough to live near a city (Chicago) that affords me wide opportunities to hear live music of all kinds. But Live Music is not always a great experience, as Per of Sweden noted. I went to a KT Tunstall concert at the VIC Theater in Chicago in Nov. 2007. The crowd was noisy and intoxicated. There was a gaggle of teenage girls 2 meters behind me who were more interested in what she was wearing and how "Hunky" her bass player was than listening to her performance. It totally ruined the experience for me. Thankfully, I was able to go home and listen to her Acoustic Extravaganza CD and be content that I SAW her live even if I did not get to HEAR her live.
Naturally I want my equipment to achieve as close to live as possible. But if it relays the emotional content to me, I don't care if it costs $100 or $10,000 I will try my best to get it.
By the way.... almost every piece of equipment I own was purchased on the used market and after careful study/listening at many high end shops. I am grateful to those who can afford to spend many thousands of dollars on equipment that pushes the musical/listening envelope. When they sell it for a fraction of its original price to poor audiophiles like me, I get a chance to experience that innovation and great resulting sound. I couldn't manage to have the systems I do without them!
My experience nearly parallels yours, Ed, as far as equipment purchases go. I too, have spent 90% of the 20K (or thereabouts), in the last five years or so. Nearly all bought used or demo, or in the case of speakers, I involved myself in a project to build enclosures (I actually had them built to my specs by Frank Wyatt in Pennsylvania) to house vintage Tannoy HPD drivers. I then built custom crossovers for them, using premium parts. I couldn't afford top-tier equipment, so I had more affordable equipment modded, (and very well, I might add) by David Schulte.
A still-impending retirement was the motivating factor to start building my system, as I knew very well I could never obtain the type of system I wanted for the long haul on a retirement income.The Tannoy project is a success, source equipment is very satisfactory, so I now build the occaisional interconnect, or power or speaker cable. Upgrades consist of things like fuses and such, or variations on tubes for the VAC or Sophia Baby. And, of course, an LP or CD once in a while.
After 40+ years, music sounds better than ever, spending more large sums of cash won't improve things much, so I'm kicking back and enjoying the fruits of my labors, and expenditures. Maybe I can afford to retire soon, with any luck.
A still-impending retirement was the motivating factor to start building my system, as I knew very well I could never obtain the type of system I wanted for the long haul on a retirement income.The Tannoy project is a success, source equipment is very satisfactory, so I now build the occaisional interconnect, or power or speaker cable. Upgrades consist of things like fuses and such, or variations on tubes for the VAC or Sophia Baby. And, of course, an LP or CD once in a while.
After 40+ years, music sounds better than ever, spending more large sums of cash won't improve things much, so I'm kicking back and enjoying the fruits of my labors, and expenditures. Maybe I can afford to retire soon, with any luck.
I would draw a line on a mega-buck system. Carefully selecting used/demo components can yield one an outstanding rig!
Where to draw the line. thats a very arbitrary point which shifts for people on an individual basis. What one justifies as a cost may seem outrageous to another. My personal interest is in gear that sounds awesome in spite of its price. That doesn't mean its cheap, but I am looking for value, but not at a sacrifice of sound quality.
In a reasonably priced system I have found that it is important to first identify the points of music reproduction that is of primary value, that cannot be compromised. Then decide which parts are less important, and what level of compromise is acceptable there. Then try to match the attributes of certain system configurations to what you are looking for, and use this as a blueprint to building a system. One of the first points to consider is if the room can support the proposed speaker system, and make sure this interface is going to work. Once speakers are selected, that allows the choice of the proper amplifier to drive them to be made. Finally, buy as good a source components as can be afforded, as lost information cannot be recovered anywhere else in the system. Also, evaluate with your ears and whatever measurement tools(such as SPL meter) you choose, just don't buy on reputation and what the forums say. Make thoughtful choices, and you will build a system that meets your needs. Doesn't need to be perfect, but it needs to get the critical parts of the music--that matter to you---right.
For what its worth my system is a mix of all types of components. Some are semi DIY speakers, a vintage restored cartridge, and traditional modern components. But I carefully weighted my options at every point, and the system does what I need it to do, and its still at a point that was affordable to me.
Regards
John Hoffman
In a reasonably priced system I have found that it is important to first identify the points of music reproduction that is of primary value, that cannot be compromised. Then decide which parts are less important, and what level of compromise is acceptable there. Then try to match the attributes of certain system configurations to what you are looking for, and use this as a blueprint to building a system. One of the first points to consider is if the room can support the proposed speaker system, and make sure this interface is going to work. Once speakers are selected, that allows the choice of the proper amplifier to drive them to be made. Finally, buy as good a source components as can be afforded, as lost information cannot be recovered anywhere else in the system. Also, evaluate with your ears and whatever measurement tools(such as SPL meter) you choose, just don't buy on reputation and what the forums say. Make thoughtful choices, and you will build a system that meets your needs. Doesn't need to be perfect, but it needs to get the critical parts of the music--that matter to you---right.
For what its worth my system is a mix of all types of components. Some are semi DIY speakers, a vintage restored cartridge, and traditional modern components. But I carefully weighted my options at every point, and the system does what I need it to do, and its still at a point that was affordable to me.
Regards
John Hoffman
Just seen this - good discussion (sorry I missed it earlier)
Getting the best out of recorded music is all about prioritising and simplifying - the best solutions are often the most elegant (and not necessarily the most costly).
Putting things in perspective it's really all to do with the speakers. It is also very easy to get sidelined with details like frequency response and room acoustics (which can be sorted out with some common sense and actually the human ears can accommodate to to some extent).
There are many other items that effect quality in an irriversible manner and these have to be looked at first without worrying about secondary characteristics. Something that is often very much overlooked (and misunderstood) is imaging. Great imaging opens up another dimension. When you can say there is an 'area' for the piano, bass and clear position for the guitar and it transcends the rear wall then differentation between rercordings becomes significant. It is this differentialtion that is all-important.
Another point - visual cues should play no part in assessing hi-fi (unless the visual appeal is your priority). Vision too often just gets in the way of objective assessments. Just close your eyes and ask 'Does this sound like a live session.' If it doesn't then the question is 'why not.' Good assessment needs both sides of the brain - emotional and analytical. One just won't work well without the other.
Saying something 'sounds great' is just about as much use as mentioning your favourite colour, equally mentioning 87 db capability at 20KHz fails to give any clear overall picture. There are some clear terms of refererence that need to be clearly thought out and agreed before we even start to talk about comparing systems.
Kevin
Getting the best out of recorded music is all about prioritising and simplifying - the best solutions are often the most elegant (and not necessarily the most costly).
Putting things in perspective it's really all to do with the speakers. It is also very easy to get sidelined with details like frequency response and room acoustics (which can be sorted out with some common sense and actually the human ears can accommodate to to some extent).
There are many other items that effect quality in an irriversible manner and these have to be looked at first without worrying about secondary characteristics. Something that is often very much overlooked (and misunderstood) is imaging. Great imaging opens up another dimension. When you can say there is an 'area' for the piano, bass and clear position for the guitar and it transcends the rear wall then differentation between rercordings becomes significant. It is this differentialtion that is all-important.
Another point - visual cues should play no part in assessing hi-fi (unless the visual appeal is your priority). Vision too often just gets in the way of objective assessments. Just close your eyes and ask 'Does this sound like a live session.' If it doesn't then the question is 'why not.' Good assessment needs both sides of the brain - emotional and analytical. One just won't work well without the other.
Saying something 'sounds great' is just about as much use as mentioning your favourite colour, equally mentioning 87 db capability at 20KHz fails to give any clear overall picture. There are some clear terms of refererence that need to be clearly thought out and agreed before we even start to talk about comparing systems.
Kevin
The line between live and recorded becomes thinner every day. One day, recorded sound will be so convincing that this conversation would not happen. We are not there yet.
That being said. With proper upgrades and tuning, much more than 1-2% of that veil is lifted. You simply have to look at products that neither add nor take away from the experience. This is not as easy as it sounds, but you can find goodness at nearly every price point.
I would go with the standard that Abbey Road Studios sets for us. If the system is good enough to monitor the precious Master recordings created with such care, shouldn't it be a good starting point? Yes, if you've got over $100k lying around with intent.
If not, then your system should be considered a budget system and will have greater deviation from the Abbey Road Standard and thus a live performance. There are very few systems that challenge the prowess of Abbey Road, save ones that cost much more.
I strive for the very best I can afford, which is not much now. But my system may very well one day be over $250k if I am financially successful.
Money is the only line to draw, and that is all you.
That being said. With proper upgrades and tuning, much more than 1-2% of that veil is lifted. You simply have to look at products that neither add nor take away from the experience. This is not as easy as it sounds, but you can find goodness at nearly every price point.
I would go with the standard that Abbey Road Studios sets for us. If the system is good enough to monitor the precious Master recordings created with such care, shouldn't it be a good starting point? Yes, if you've got over $100k lying around with intent.
If not, then your system should be considered a budget system and will have greater deviation from the Abbey Road Standard and thus a live performance. There are very few systems that challenge the prowess of Abbey Road, save ones that cost much more.
I strive for the very best I can afford, which is not much now. But my system may very well one day be over $250k if I am financially successful.
Money is the only line to draw, and that is all you.
OT--wonder what happened to Dejan? He had some cool stuff coming out, I think I'll ping him.
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