Measurements and listening
Okay, so I read the MPS-5 review in Stereophile as well as the thread over on AA and I am not so sure I see an issue. JA found it to measure rather oddly using traditional means, MF found it so sound wonderfully right when playing music, and JT and AK responded with little surprise at either conclusion... based on its algorithms one can't use traditional measuring tests as it wasn't designed to 'play' them back... give it music and that is its magic. You really got the read the review, JA's measurements and their response to get the whole picture... but I would agree that one can not measure everything or in some cases somethings that matter i terms of musicality.
Discussion started by Dave Clark , on 1208 days ago
As an owner of an MPS-5 I can say that there is no discernible 'noise' or whatever under the music and that MF sums up the player's performance rather well (I have reviewed it on PFO as has David Robinson my partner) and whatever issues that JA found do not have an impact the sound at all... in this case I go with Andreas and his response to JA's findings.
Back, around 1985 or so, I was manager of a “High End” stereo store here in San Diego. This small shop (then) was located in a small L shape strip mall, with more eateries in it than the parking could bear during peak lunch hours. Our front lobby windows prominently displayed a variety of speakers and electronics, enticing passers-by to enter our “clubby” little shop.
Nestled in a high-tech area, surrounded by such companies as General Dynamics and Kyocera, it was not unusual for us to draw in some of the area’s brightest minds, able to spend what was left of their lunch break, eating Godzilla burgers just a couple of doors down.
Back then, companies like MIT (before networks - think MH750 shotgun cables and 330 interconnects) and Monster Cable (M1 series speaker cable at a staggering 9.00 per foot back then or their PowerLine models). These were still fairly young companies.
Walking up to the front counter and passing by the reels of speaker cables, we knew we’d be in for it as their eyes would roll while approaching us and, as though throwing down a gauntlet, they would burst into some diatribe about how "electrons don’t care what they travel down" so long as you complete the circuit. That these cables were “bogus” and then, they’d fish for the poor sales guy to give him some reasonable - but techie - explanation about why they sounded better than the zip cord he was using at home.
Look... we knew most of these guys designed missiles that could chase a person around a city block and probably even film his demise at the same time. They’d stand there as if we were about to reach into some pouch around our necks for bones to toss onto the floor to tell them their fortune. - There was no way we’d be able to talk to them on their level and, anyway, we had all stuck around after work many nights, fiddling with cables, doing a/b comparisons and trying to figure out what combinations worked well with different electronics and speakers.
We could try to talk to them about the multi-stranded little bundles of wires, wrapped around an insulated larger gauge center conductor and parrot the Monster Cable theory of time arrival and skin effect... or the goodness of teflon dielectrics and so forth - but we didn’t... wouldn’t... what good would it serve? We didn’t get it either but suffice it to say, we had all heard a difference between all the cables we carried and that was all that mattered. The changes were repeatable. You could pretty much “call it” when building a system, knowing what cables were going to most likely compliment it.
Instead, in as calm a tone as possible, we’d not take the bait and instead answered them with, “why don’t you let me send you home with some on loan?” We’d go on to say that as long as they kept an open mind, we could send them off with enough cables to get from point A to B in their system and they could hang onto them over the weekend and when back at work the following monday, we’d be there to check them back in again and compare notes.
They would come back in on Monday and while setting the cables on the counter and slowing shaking their head from side to side, we'd hear something to the effect: “Thanks for the loan of the cables. I shouldn’t have heard a difference but....” with the operative being “shouldn’t have”... but the majority of them did. And you know what? That would be enough for most people back then.
Even in those days, Linn had a sensible philosophy about buying a stereo system. The same as they post on their site today:
“The Linn philosophy is a very simple one – if it sounds better it is better. We have always believed that the best way to evaluate the quality of a system is simply to listen and let your ears decide.”
Whether you’re a Linn fan or not, it’s sage advice.
Nestled in a high-tech area, surrounded by such companies as General Dynamics and Kyocera, it was not unusual for us to draw in some of the area’s brightest minds, able to spend what was left of their lunch break, eating Godzilla burgers just a couple of doors down.
Back then, companies like MIT (before networks - think MH750 shotgun cables and 330 interconnects) and Monster Cable (M1 series speaker cable at a staggering 9.00 per foot back then or their PowerLine models). These were still fairly young companies.
Walking up to the front counter and passing by the reels of speaker cables, we knew we’d be in for it as their eyes would roll while approaching us and, as though throwing down a gauntlet, they would burst into some diatribe about how "electrons don’t care what they travel down" so long as you complete the circuit. That these cables were “bogus” and then, they’d fish for the poor sales guy to give him some reasonable - but techie - explanation about why they sounded better than the zip cord he was using at home.
Look... we knew most of these guys designed missiles that could chase a person around a city block and probably even film his demise at the same time. They’d stand there as if we were about to reach into some pouch around our necks for bones to toss onto the floor to tell them their fortune. - There was no way we’d be able to talk to them on their level and, anyway, we had all stuck around after work many nights, fiddling with cables, doing a/b comparisons and trying to figure out what combinations worked well with different electronics and speakers.
We could try to talk to them about the multi-stranded little bundles of wires, wrapped around an insulated larger gauge center conductor and parrot the Monster Cable theory of time arrival and skin effect... or the goodness of teflon dielectrics and so forth - but we didn’t... wouldn’t... what good would it serve? We didn’t get it either but suffice it to say, we had all heard a difference between all the cables we carried and that was all that mattered. The changes were repeatable. You could pretty much “call it” when building a system, knowing what cables were going to most likely compliment it.
Instead, in as calm a tone as possible, we’d not take the bait and instead answered them with, “why don’t you let me send you home with some on loan?” We’d go on to say that as long as they kept an open mind, we could send them off with enough cables to get from point A to B in their system and they could hang onto them over the weekend and when back at work the following monday, we’d be there to check them back in again and compare notes.
They would come back in on Monday and while setting the cables on the counter and slowing shaking their head from side to side, we'd hear something to the effect: “Thanks for the loan of the cables. I shouldn’t have heard a difference but....” with the operative being “shouldn’t have”... but the majority of them did. And you know what? That would be enough for most people back then.
Even in those days, Linn had a sensible philosophy about buying a stereo system. The same as they post on their site today:
“The Linn philosophy is a very simple one – if it sounds better it is better. We have always believed that the best way to evaluate the quality of a system is simply to listen and let your ears decide.”
Whether you’re a Linn fan or not, it’s sage advice.
I like the Linn concept, but many don't. Regarding cables, lots & lots of voodoo out there.
I've auditioned everything from zip cord to the silly expensive. Bottom line: Only a few cables in the world actually improve sound while most do not. Price is not always a indicator of performance, especially in the hi fi world. :) The speaker cables & interconnects that I currently use are the best of the best in terms of performance in my opinion. They don't cost that much either compared other hi end brands- imagine that. :)
I've auditioned everything from zip cord to the silly expensive. Bottom line: Only a few cables in the world actually improve sound while most do not. Price is not always a indicator of performance, especially in the hi fi world. :) The speaker cables & interconnects that I currently use are the best of the best in terms of performance in my opinion. They don't cost that much either compared other hi end brands- imagine that. :)
Absolutely! :) I'm not so much concerned with cost but I'm very concerned with performance.
Agreed... My point being that in the end, one should always be open minded when it comes to such things and above all, listen. If the item makes a difference in a positive way, it should be considered. You can't just go by specs alone.
Cables........ah!
Thats a great subject. The ice cream maker theory:)
i will get into that tonight, late night for me...early evening your time!
One constant is proven for me regarding cables...........never mix the flavors!
you will find that you might not be as adequate as you thought for an ice cream "unique flavor" maker.
also sometimes is good to leave the toppings out!!
the contact enhancers i mean:)
i will elaborate latter tonight...........
By the way as an audiophile i have tried 20 different flavors.
Copper or better "vanilla" worked for me!
Silver, gold, carbon fiber............?
More on that...........later!
Thats a great subject. The ice cream maker theory:)
i will get into that tonight, late night for me...early evening your time!
One constant is proven for me regarding cables...........never mix the flavors!
you will find that you might not be as adequate as you thought for an ice cream "unique flavor" maker.
also sometimes is good to leave the toppings out!!
the contact enhancers i mean:)
i will elaborate latter tonight...........
By the way as an audiophile i have tried 20 different flavors.
Copper or better "vanilla" worked for me!
Silver, gold, carbon fiber............?
More on that...........later!
There are two camps here... a 'all-in-the-family'- loom of cables vs. that of use what works best with that. I can see both arguments, though I find too much of any one 'sound' to impart too much of any one 'sound' into/onto the music. Experience, for me at least, has shown mixing and matching works, but it takes more work to get it right. I use a mixture of silver, copper, and whatever JPS uses, to get for me, the 'right' sound. Including finding the right AC cord from whomever to use on a component as well. So my system is a mixture of Kubala-Sosna, PAD, Audio Magic, JPS, Locus, and Dynamic Design to get it right to my ears. I have gone all one brand, but it never sounds as good as using the 'right' cable at the 'right' spot.
one should have the funds and the time and the patience to pick the right cable for the right component from different brands let alone geometry, material chosen.
in all this equation..........one should have a clear picture of what kind of sound he or she is after.
in my limited experience many and i mean too many audiophiles in my part of the world, check marketing brochures, magazines, and other literature to form their systems personality!
what about their own opinion? education? live experiences? how for instance a finger style wooden guitar sounds in contrast to other guitars? etc.
literature facilitates your final decision......does not form your musical impressions, ears, perceived sounds or the way you want emotion to pass through your system!
thats my point of view gents:)
in all this equation..........one should have a clear picture of what kind of sound he or she is after.
in my limited experience many and i mean too many audiophiles in my part of the world, check marketing brochures, magazines, and other literature to form their systems personality!
what about their own opinion? education? live experiences? how for instance a finger style wooden guitar sounds in contrast to other guitars? etc.
literature facilitates your final decision......does not form your musical impressions, ears, perceived sounds or the way you want emotion to pass through your system!
thats my point of view gents:)
As I came from the engineering school of objective thought, the part that keep me playing in the high end is that things that we've been taught forever "don't matter" or couldn't "change the sound", in fact, do. I believe it was H.H. Scott fifty some odd years ago, who started to build test equipment to verify what he was hearing. I'm not entirely sure we've gotten very much farther than he did... yet.
So I find myself oddly and ironically in the subjectivist camp. How the hell did I get here? Because I no longer care how something tests or what the reviews said. I only really care how it makes the music sound in the context of my system, or in other's systems. As this is the PFO group, don't get me wrong- I adore every second of time I spend reading reviews, I cherish and find it a high art form and wouldn't give back a second of time I've spent scouring the rags. Without them, we'd be all the poorer, and without any level of ability to communicate what we're hearing. I suppose we all owe JGH a debt of gratitude for getting the snowball rolling. Actually, we owe all reviewers that same debt of gratitude. Although they get to play with neat gear, they also have to describe the indescribable- the same indescribable that we engineers can't even measure yet. :)
So I find myself oddly and ironically in the subjectivist camp. How the hell did I get here? Because I no longer care how something tests or what the reviews said. I only really care how it makes the music sound in the context of my system, or in other's systems. As this is the PFO group, don't get me wrong- I adore every second of time I spend reading reviews, I cherish and find it a high art form and wouldn't give back a second of time I've spent scouring the rags. Without them, we'd be all the poorer, and without any level of ability to communicate what we're hearing. I suppose we all owe JGH a debt of gratitude for getting the snowball rolling. Actually, we owe all reviewers that same debt of gratitude. Although they get to play with neat gear, they also have to describe the indescribable- the same indescribable that we engineers can't even measure yet. :)
I thoroughly subscribe to the motto "if it measured bad and sounds bad, it's bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you're measuring the wrong thing".
IOW, there must surely be tests which correlate directly with the sonic results?
IOW, there must surely be tests which correlate directly with the sonic results?
"If it measured bad and sounds bad, it's bad. If it measures bad and sounds good, you're measuring the wrong thing"... would suggest that either it sounds good or it doesn't (to the listener that is) and if so, who cares how it measures, either you like it or you don't. Any measurements are only there for the engineers or those wanting some validation and/or reference.
I would also add that if it measures good and sounds bad, then who cares how it measures...
I would also add that if it measures good and sounds bad, then who cares how it measures...
Greg Alexander: I believe that test would be called listening. If it sounds better,it is better. :)
I wish we knew what and how to measure what we hear, but clearly the math we are presently using is not relevant to sonic quality. This means the sonic result has to do with other issues than electrical signal. Vibration is an example; where in the "numbers" is vibration discussed? How do we quantify the interaction of the dielectric to the signal? We have an mathematical representation of the dielectric, but this number does not deal with vibration as my example is stating. This is one of many variables that we should measure if we want to quantify mathematically the performance.
In the end the listener has an experience with a product (say a cable) and draws a conclusion as to what that cable is achieving. The numbers no longer matter, for it is our enjoyment of the final result that matters, not the math.
If we are looking to make the audio hobby a quantifiable formula driven hobby, than by all means, measure everything possible, but if we are looking for human ears to react to sound, we might consider the listener the greater weighted measurement. I do not go to Orchestra Hall to measure the sonic quality of the Orchestra, no I go to enjoy music. I do not run numbers of acoustic resonance while listening, nor do I figure the distance between me and the brass section. No I allow the event to move me, it's not math, it's human ears hearing music.
In the end the listener has an experience with a product (say a cable) and draws a conclusion as to what that cable is achieving. The numbers no longer matter, for it is our enjoyment of the final result that matters, not the math.
If we are looking to make the audio hobby a quantifiable formula driven hobby, than by all means, measure everything possible, but if we are looking for human ears to react to sound, we might consider the listener the greater weighted measurement. I do not go to Orchestra Hall to measure the sonic quality of the Orchestra, no I go to enjoy music. I do not run numbers of acoustic resonance while listening, nor do I figure the distance between me and the brass section. No I allow the event to move me, it's not math, it's human ears hearing music.
JD, well said. In speaking to several people in the audio industry about measurements, the following came up, 1) measuring distortion in amplifiers/preamplifiers is meaningless unless you are measuring the 'right' distortions and then understand which ones are good and which ones are bad (Tim de Paravicini) and then do what you need to with them to make something sound 'right', and 2) measuring jitter is moot unless you understand that jitter is not a single thing or entity but something more complex and diverse in that there are different forms/types of jitter that affect and/or are affected by different things going on within a digital device. How you treat one affects another or something else and some are less of an issue than others - musically speaking (Josh Heiner).
Greg S -- on principle "if it sounds better, it is" is a sound (sorry) argument. In practise however, it suffers limitations; for example, the subjective perception of the person listening.
An interesting (old) article by a B&K engineer (http://www.zainea.com/multidimensionalaudio.htm) attempts to throw some light on the matter. If nothing else, it's an enlightened read --
An interesting (old) article by a B&K engineer (http://www.zainea.com/multidimensionalaudio.htm) attempts to throw some light on the matter. If nothing else, it's an enlightened read --
Neither reviews,specs, nor math have ever aided me in making a informed decision regarding audio components. :)
Hello Greg:)
by checking out my point of view on reviewers..........you will see that eventually i have come long way....full circle and a lot of money spent.........to fully and painfully so......agreeing with you!
an honest dealer with great customer service and one of my best friends-technician/designer/modifier of audio stuff, Electronics Teacher/University Lecturer with an opened mind....................opened my eyes on not being psychologically influenced by magazine reviews when auditioning or buying audiophile stuff!
..................or expecting music nirvana when a reviewer says so...............cause he has written 5 pages including measurements and specs to verify his "subjective" findings!
by checking out my point of view on reviewers..........you will see that eventually i have come long way....full circle and a lot of money spent.........to fully and painfully so......agreeing with you!
an honest dealer with great customer service and one of my best friends-technician/designer/modifier of audio stuff, Electronics Teacher/University Lecturer with an opened mind....................opened my eyes on not being psychologically influenced by magazine reviews when auditioning or buying audiophile stuff!
..................or expecting music nirvana when a reviewer says so...............cause he has written 5 pages including measurements and specs to verify his "subjective" findings!
Hi Greg. :) Everyone hears a bit differently & that's ok. It's up to each individual to piece together their own components that work for them. For me, I've got the sound really happening with both of my systems. What really surprised me the most was actually finding a CD player that produced music and not simply sound. I've been a analog for my whole life until 2006 when I got the McIntosh MCD201, then I upgraded to the McIntosh MCD500. I looked at many,many CD players and have found something that works for me.
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