The Perfect Listening Room
Having heard a first rate system in a very large room, I realized how much I enjoy soundstage depth. If you could design your perfect room, how big, what shape, materials, etc. would you choose? And don't say "Any room with a full record rack and a fuller liquor cabinet" unless you really mean it!
Discussion started by Dean Seislove , on 823 days ago
The most important criteria is that there should be no major mode of resonance greater than the speaker -3db rolloff.
To calculate the lowest major node (below this frequency the volume falls off rapidly):
DIVIDE 172 BY THE LONGEST LENGTH (IN M) TO GIVE A VALUE IN HZ.
The speaker bass should at least start to roll off above this frequency or you will be introducing peaks and booms due to the room reinforcing the response of the speaker.
There are of course many other considerations, bu tthis is a good starter.
Kevin
To calculate the lowest major node (below this frequency the volume falls off rapidly):
DIVIDE 172 BY THE LONGEST LENGTH (IN M) TO GIVE A VALUE IN HZ.
The speaker bass should at least start to roll off above this frequency or you will be introducing peaks and booms due to the room reinforcing the response of the speaker.
There are of course many other considerations, bu tthis is a good starter.
Kevin
Great question! Too big to really get into here. From an acoustical point of view, soundstage is affected by so many factors. I would say the primary is horizontal symmetry.
For a good soundstage, the room should be at least 15' wide. Less than this and you receive too much boundary interference to deal with, and/or your speakers become too close to each other to offer soundstage depth. For a good soundstage, you should absorb and/or diffuse all first order reflections (by about 15 DB SPL below the direct) down to at least 500 Hz.
For or good bass response, the room should be rectangular in shape and offer good room mode distribution. In addition, the speaker/listener positions must be such that they do not exasperate the existing modes and still offer optimum stereo imaging. Also, for articulate bass response, the shell design should include damping for low frequency absorption and cavity resonance control.
For good resolution and dynamics, the room shell systems should include breaks, absorption, isolation and/or blocking of noise interference. HVAC is obviously part of the overall noise control issues that must be addressed. Electrical is also part of the noise floor regarding dynamics and resolution, not to mention many aspects of sound quality.
Calibration. Without physical and electrical symmetry you can't have an optimum soundstage.
Additional interior acoustic treatments are also needed to further control room modes and reverberation times so that the room sounds neutral.
This is our performance value hierarchy for audio systems:
1. Set-up
2. Calibration
3. Acoustics
4. Electronics
Norman Varney
A/V RoomService
For a good soundstage, the room should be at least 15' wide. Less than this and you receive too much boundary interference to deal with, and/or your speakers become too close to each other to offer soundstage depth. For a good soundstage, you should absorb and/or diffuse all first order reflections (by about 15 DB SPL below the direct) down to at least 500 Hz.
For or good bass response, the room should be rectangular in shape and offer good room mode distribution. In addition, the speaker/listener positions must be such that they do not exasperate the existing modes and still offer optimum stereo imaging. Also, for articulate bass response, the shell design should include damping for low frequency absorption and cavity resonance control.
For good resolution and dynamics, the room shell systems should include breaks, absorption, isolation and/or blocking of noise interference. HVAC is obviously part of the overall noise control issues that must be addressed. Electrical is also part of the noise floor regarding dynamics and resolution, not to mention many aspects of sound quality.
Calibration. Without physical and electrical symmetry you can't have an optimum soundstage.
Additional interior acoustic treatments are also needed to further control room modes and reverberation times so that the room sounds neutral.
This is our performance value hierarchy for audio systems:
1. Set-up
2. Calibration
3. Acoustics
4. Electronics
Norman Varney
A/V RoomService
'For a good soundstage, the room should be at least 15' wide'
Yes I mostly agree with this. There is actually a trick you can use for narrow rooms:
Use speakers that don't go down enough not to excite the room width - probably best placed on the longer wall to give any decent separation.
Place a calibrated subwoofer 1/3 to half way along the width, next to the wall. This will then excite the length without exciting the width too much.
It's still a compromise though,
Kevin
Yes I mostly agree with this. There is actually a trick you can use for narrow rooms:
Use speakers that don't go down enough not to excite the room width - probably best placed on the longer wall to give any decent separation.
Place a calibrated subwoofer 1/3 to half way along the width, next to the wall. This will then excite the length without exciting the width too much.
It's still a compromise though,
Kevin
Hi guys.
My room is a 17 foot wide room by 12 deep. Eight foot ceilings I have my speakers placed along the long wall, which is at the front of my house. I've set it up this way out of necessity because I don't have a dedicated spot and i want to protect them from young children doing what young children do. I think I accidentally did something right, though, because with the right record it sounds like the music is coming from my front yard as if the wall wasn't there.
The speakers are about seven feet apart, about four feet from the outside walls, and about three and a half feet into the room. There's a couch between them. Any thoughts on what tweaks could be made (within reason) to make it even better?
My room is a 17 foot wide room by 12 deep. Eight foot ceilings I have my speakers placed along the long wall, which is at the front of my house. I've set it up this way out of necessity because I don't have a dedicated spot and i want to protect them from young children doing what young children do. I think I accidentally did something right, though, because with the right record it sounds like the music is coming from my front yard as if the wall wasn't there.
The speakers are about seven feet apart, about four feet from the outside walls, and about three and a half feet into the room. There's a couch between them. Any thoughts on what tweaks could be made (within reason) to make it even better?
If you can place speakers next to a wall the image is always better in the lower mid/bass because you aren't suffering the 'virtual speaker' effect with delayed sound bouncing off the wall. forming a virtual image of the speaker behind the wall which interferes with the main one. You may also get a bit too much bass if speakers are designed to be used away from the wall, and increase the possibility of room with resonances. The ideal scenario is to build the speakers into the wall - no wall reverb or diffraction effects from the speaker at all, but there would still have to be a mechanism for angling them in fopr correct to-in and it won't work in narrow rooms due to resonance.
Kevin
Kevin
Mine is about 17 x 14 with 9 foot ceilings. Coved along the long sides.... sounds good. Images on the PFO site.
I do find formulas/standards for speaker placement to be quite interesting in that, yes they often times do work as suggested, but then there are times that they do not. I had a speaker designer show up with a laptop, some rather $$ room software, and a microphone who then spent several hours measuring my room from various locations combined with the speakers under review in various locations (all based on formulas/standards) and while he was 'happy' he was not all that 'happy' with what he was seeing/hearing. I suggested that we put the speakers where I normally have mine (not by formula but by ear) and by golly, that was the best overall. Sure it would have been even better had I moved the couch forward several feet out into the room, but then I do live here and it is my living room so some compromises are made in terms of 'liveabilty'.
Guess what I am saying is that sure, try what the formulas suggest and then go from there. Sometimes speakers can end up where one would not expect them to be fine. Like mine. I have one speaker with the sidewall/fireplace off the side and the other with a large entry into the dining room. Meaning that one 'see's side refection and the other does not. Yes the two speakers do not measure quite the same from the listening seat (when measured individually), but overall the room tends to balance that out when both are playing.
Guess what I am saying is that sure, try what the formulas suggest and then go from there. Sometimes speakers can end up where one would not expect them to be fine. Like mine. I have one speaker with the sidewall/fireplace off the side and the other with a large entry into the dining room. Meaning that one 'see's side refection and the other does not. Yes the two speakers do not measure quite the same from the listening seat (when measured individually), but overall the room tends to balance that out when both are playing.
@ Gavin, I would suggest addressing the first order reflections next. This will go a long way in improving spatial imaging and tonality especially. If needed, use absorption at these points to also address reverberation control, otherwise use diffusion or a combination. The ideal would be an attenuation of about 15 dB at these points, and as broadband as possible. Try to keep the left and right horizontal plane symmetrical. Acoustic treatments could be as simple as large leafed plants, staggered books, etc., or true acoustical treatment products.
Norman Varney
A/V RoomService
Norman Varney
A/V RoomService
Gavin: Your speaker setup is similar to mine. I've gotten consistently good results over the years using Joachim Gerhard/Allen Perkins method.
http://www.immediasound.com/Speaker set-up 2009.pdf
http://www.immediasound.com/Speaker set-up 2009.pdf
Current room is 16 x 24, but hoping to do some remodeling next year and increase it to 24 x 36. All of the most realistic systems I've heard
have had one thing in common, a fairly good sized room. I just spent time with our writer Jacob Heilbrunn (who also writes for TAS) and he's
got a pair of Wilson X-2's in a room that's about 20 x 35 and the presentation size was fantastic. Dave Wilson also has about a 30 x 40 room
that is very good as well. A few others come to mind, but the one thing in common to really get that last bit of lifelike perspective is space.
The final frontier.
Of course this isn't terribly practical for most people!
have had one thing in common, a fairly good sized room. I just spent time with our writer Jacob Heilbrunn (who also writes for TAS) and he's
got a pair of Wilson X-2's in a room that's about 20 x 35 and the presentation size was fantastic. Dave Wilson also has about a 30 x 40 room
that is very good as well. A few others come to mind, but the one thing in common to really get that last bit of lifelike perspective is space.
The final frontier.
Of course this isn't terribly practical for most people!
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