How important is the power supply in any audiophile system, including power cables, regenerators, stabilizators, etc.
For me it is the fuel that drives the marathon runner to endure the whole distance without any significant physical and mental losses!
For further discussion if anyone wants to contribute................later tonight i will be more specific and express my views in less metaphoric terms.
Discussion started by greg karayannis , on 1200 days ago
I have settled on Hi-Fi Tuning after trying the Isoclean and Furutech. The Hi-Fi Tuning seem to have the best balance to my ears.
The power supply is likely the most important part of any of the gear we play with. Signal paths are important, but one must remember that we are not making the signal from the source larger. We are using the input signal to modulate the power supply to create a duplicate of the original signal. Worse yet, we are doing it once per stage in every stage of "amplification" in the system. So it is likely that in the average system, we've recreated a copy of the original signal 5 or more times before it ever hits the least effective destination stage of the system, the transducer (speaker). Therefore, the power supply rail that is modulated to create the signal is paramount to the quality of that signal.
Regulation is not the key either, it is a tool. Shunt regulation seems to limit surge power or transients. Series regulation does the same. Simple Pi filters don't seem to be quiet enough, but surge a little better. DC would seem to be an obvious solution, but it ain't no panacea either. The best one can hope for is to limit the designs the least, using the right tools for the best results we can achieve. I can't design as good as the best designers out there, but I can talk smack with 'em.
Great topic Greg.
Regulation is not the key either, it is a tool. Shunt regulation seems to limit surge power or transients. Series regulation does the same. Simple Pi filters don't seem to be quiet enough, but surge a little better. DC would seem to be an obvious solution, but it ain't no panacea either. The best one can hope for is to limit the designs the least, using the right tools for the best results we can achieve. I can't design as good as the best designers out there, but I can talk smack with 'em.
Great topic Greg.
I can not go as technical as my friend Scott..........................these days in my system i have found out that 2 totally different types of power filtration.........do not complement each other but rather have negative influence!
i.e. passive common mode differential filters and Regenerators!
also, as always simplicity works best!
i have found that a good musical power distribution block(Vibex 8 way).......does not have harmonic synergy with my Accuphase PS-1210 regenerator.....................alone by itself to a wall socket produce more acceptable results.
connecting high quality power cables directly to a power regenerator and the same or of similar philosophy to its input from the wall...........for me created...........a more robust, homogeneous, balanced effect!!
also my dedicated hi fi tuning consumer unit fuse(20A slow blow)............elevated the performance of my filtered system!
non-filtered has great dynamics but a lot of mush, grain, crude virtues all over!
for me this means that even a power so called regenerator is affected greatly by the quantity, quality of the initial current!!
it is in other words a big amp.....that has great.....quantity, even quality "current" demands all-over.....in order to perform admirably..........works in my system as a magnifying glass/lens!
finally, since it is an amp.......vibration draining/elimination improves its "cleaning" performance!
thats all for now........keep you updated:)
i.e. passive common mode differential filters and Regenerators!
also, as always simplicity works best!
i have found that a good musical power distribution block(Vibex 8 way).......does not have harmonic synergy with my Accuphase PS-1210 regenerator.....................alone by itself to a wall socket produce more acceptable results.
connecting high quality power cables directly to a power regenerator and the same or of similar philosophy to its input from the wall...........for me created...........a more robust, homogeneous, balanced effect!!
also my dedicated hi fi tuning consumer unit fuse(20A slow blow)............elevated the performance of my filtered system!
non-filtered has great dynamics but a lot of mush, grain, crude virtues all over!
for me this means that even a power so called regenerator is affected greatly by the quantity, quality of the initial current!!
it is in other words a big amp.....that has great.....quantity, even quality "current" demands all-over.....in order to perform admirably..........works in my system as a magnifying glass/lens!
finally, since it is an amp.......vibration draining/elimination improves its "cleaning" performance!
thats all for now........keep you updated:)
Presently enjoying the benefits of getting off the grid. SLA DC rocks! It's also inexpensive and easy to implement.
If you go SLA, please be aware they need venting in the room or closet they are stored in. I'm not saying I'd go as far as it being dangerous, but care should be taken as lead acids (even sealed ones) vapor out to some extent. Don't store your DC bank in your furnace room for example. lol. Also, if feeling particularly "green", one can easily recharge those banks with even small solar panels, as a few milliamps for hours every day can keep banks topped off.
I just posted my system under my profile so you can see what gear I'm running off batteries.
Disclaimer: there is risk to playing with power. Make a mistake and you can blow up your gear and/or yourself. I've done both and lived to tell about it.
Virtually all gear runs off DC voltage. To get off the grid, substitute the proper DC voltage from a Sealed Lead Acid (SLA) battery for the AC recified DC voltage that your gear's power supply generates. SLA batteries and chargers are readily available and relatively inexpensive (especially compared to audiophile power cords and accessories).
If your gear is powered by an unregulated DC wall wart, SLA substitution is pretty easy. I can go into more detail when I have more time.
Disclaimer: there is risk to playing with power. Make a mistake and you can blow up your gear and/or yourself. I've done both and lived to tell about it.
Virtually all gear runs off DC voltage. To get off the grid, substitute the proper DC voltage from a Sealed Lead Acid (SLA) battery for the AC recified DC voltage that your gear's power supply generates. SLA batteries and chargers are readily available and relatively inexpensive (especially compared to audiophile power cords and accessories).
If your gear is powered by an unregulated DC wall wart, SLA substitution is pretty easy. I can go into more detail when I have more time.
One of the the Veloce designers, Mark Conti, had designed an interesting bipolar speaker several years ago that never quite saw the light of day. Heard it at Mark's house outside Philly and it was really fast and resolving. Just needed more bass driver and bipole integration. Heard the Veloce in the Kubala-Sosna room at CES and it aquitted itself very well. I'm hoping Mark will be bringing one of his battery powered (green :) ) preamps around in the near future.
@Russ: Russ, several designers have tried to use some sort of battery power over the years with mixed results. One area that was always problematic was dynamics. How do you feel you're getting over the issue of dynamic compression?
At this point I'm using batteries to power DAC chips, op amps, and low voltage tubes that all have current draw in the milliamp range. If anything, SLA batteries open up dynamics when powering these circuits since the current reserves are huge compared to typical rectified power supplies. For low voltage, low current circuits, SLAs work very well.
Power amps are a whole different animal since they run off much higher voltages and demand way more current from the power supply. I did successfully build a battery powered Hypex Class D amp a few years ago that sounded very open, relaxed and transparent compared to the same Hypex modules with a standard linear supply. I liked my Quicksilver tube amps better so I abandoned the project.
Dodd Audio is doing something interesting where he uses SLAs to power a switching PS to drive an EL84 based power amp. Only getting 15 wpc out of it but it's supposed to sound incredible.
I'll write up more info off-line and post it when I can.
Power amps are a whole different animal since they run off much higher voltages and demand way more current from the power supply. I did successfully build a battery powered Hypex Class D amp a few years ago that sounded very open, relaxed and transparent compared to the same Hypex modules with a standard linear supply. I liked my Quicksilver tube amps better so I abandoned the project.
Dodd Audio is doing something interesting where he uses SLAs to power a switching PS to drive an EL84 based power amp. Only getting 15 wpc out of it but it's supposed to sound incredible.
I'll write up more info off-line and post it when I can.
I would have to agree here with Myles having had several battery powered components here i the past (Redwine DAC, Final Labs, electronics, battery power for odds and ends, and another preamp that slips my memory) all tend to have a 'softer' presentation with less slam and dynamics than those of a more 'traditional' power. All a matter of taste.
You raise a good point Dave. One of the changes I hear when going battery is a shift to a rounder, more organic sound. I’m speculating here but I think some of the snappy, dynamic character that we hear in our systems may in fact be power supply noise riding on the edge of the waveform. Because we’ve voiced our system around that character, stripping it away with a less noisy PS results in a softer sound. This is why, in my opinion, power cord swapping is so popular. It’s an easy way to shape and shift the amount and character of the noise each component is injecting into the system.
Russ, you have suggested what is not doubt a distinct possibility, that what we take for 'right' might actually be 'wrong'. In the end one can naturally 'correct' for any shift one way with something that shifts it back to the other way... that is if noise in the PS results in hyped dynamics, etc and we have taken this for being right - that is we like it and want it as being musically correct and then batteries take this noise/affect away resulting in less of that affect (hence softer rounder sound) should we then change something else to get this back? And if we do, what does this suggest as to what is right? If you are confused, so am I. In the end I think it all boils down to getting rid of (as much as is possible) any noise and whatnot that rides along in our music to get the sound we want. Every time I feel that I have lowered the noise floor in my system, there is something I end up trying or doing that takes it even further.
Here is the link to the other battery preamp I had here, but that was years ago so I know improvements have occurred, though I do not know if this is still in production:
http://www.reflectionaudio.com/index.html
http://www.reflectionaudio.com/index.html
This thread is one of the best yet - and wish I had more time, but I gotta say two quick things:
When it comes to battery-powered gear, and that gear's ability to sound like music, or, rather, feel like music to me, the only system I ever heard that took my breath away was the ASR gear driving the Nola Grand Reference (w/ the E.A.R magnetic drive turntable at the front end for analog, w/ ASR phono-stage, still one of my favorites of all time). The bottom line: That system did things I didn't know where possible, period. Martin Sexton was IN the room with us when I dropped the needle on "The American", like a holographic image, three dimensional - at least to me he was.
As for AC - ever since I put the Nordost thor in my system I realized just how important AC was, and, admittedly, felt ashamed that I hadn't spent much time on the AC until that point (this was in 2004 or so) - aside of rerunning leads and installing better quality outlets. After I installed the Thor, and heard that it had a more profound impact on my system than changing amplifiers/line-stages, etc. (my wife heard it INSTANTLY, and was in the back of my house when I kicked the system on after installing it, she thought it was an amplifier it changed the sound so drastically). I then started to dig deeper into the AC end of the system, and haven't turned back since.
When it comes to battery-powered gear, and that gear's ability to sound like music, or, rather, feel like music to me, the only system I ever heard that took my breath away was the ASR gear driving the Nola Grand Reference (w/ the E.A.R magnetic drive turntable at the front end for analog, w/ ASR phono-stage, still one of my favorites of all time). The bottom line: That system did things I didn't know where possible, period. Martin Sexton was IN the room with us when I dropped the needle on "The American", like a holographic image, three dimensional - at least to me he was.
As for AC - ever since I put the Nordost thor in my system I realized just how important AC was, and, admittedly, felt ashamed that I hadn't spent much time on the AC until that point (this was in 2004 or so) - aside of rerunning leads and installing better quality outlets. After I installed the Thor, and heard that it had a more profound impact on my system than changing amplifiers/line-stages, etc. (my wife heard it INSTANTLY, and was in the back of my house when I kicked the system on after installing it, she thought it was an amplifier it changed the sound so drastically). I then started to dig deeper into the AC end of the system, and haven't turned back since.
@Dave: I heard the Reflection Audio preamp years ago at Lars Fredell's when he was reviewing it for Ultimate Audio. It was a very good solid-state piece though I'd have to go back through back issues to jog more of my memory about the piece. It was also around 13K or so back then.
I wrote up some notes about how I'm using battery power with my gear. It's kind of long. Should I post it here or somewhere else?
Here goes...
The way I set up an outboard SLA battery PS is to connect the (+) and (–) of the battery to the center pins of a 5 amp DPDT switch ($4 at Radio Shack). Then connect the (+) and (–) from the SLA charger to the top of the switch and the (+) and (–) DC power cable to the bottom of the switch. When the switch is down, the battery is connected to the charger. When the switch is up, the battery is connected to the DC power cable which is connected to the component. No Duh Warning: DC requires correct polarity. Make sure all the positives are tied to same side of the switch. Mixing up (+) and (–) WILL result in battery and equipment damage.
To operate, flip the switch up to send battery power to the component. When you’re done using the component, flip the switch down to connect the battery to the charger. Here’s the caution with SLAs. Deep discharge significantly shortens battery life so it’s important to disconnect the battery from the component after every use. This is no different than turning tube gear off to preserve tube life. If you’re a solid state guy used to leaving everything on all the time, you’ll have to get into the habit of doing this.
Here’s how I set up SLA’s with some of my gear starting with the simplest to the most complex.
Sound Smith MMP4 Phono Preamp This phono preamp comes with an unregulated 24 VDC wall wart. When I measured the voltage at the connector it was over 30 volts with my AC mains voltage around 124VAC. At 115VAC the DC will be lower, probably around 24V. As long as the DC voltage is between 20 to 30 volts, the unit will operate just fine. To get 24V, I wired two 12V SLAs in series by connecting B1 (-) to B2 (+) so the voltage between B1 (+) and B2 (–) is 24V. The actual voltage when fully charged is around 27V, but that’s O.K. for this unit. I put together a DC power cord using microphone cable and the proper DC connector for the MMP4. I double and triple check that (+) goes to the center pin and (–) goes to the outer barrel of the connector. This setup uses a 24V charger rather than a standard 12V charger.
Logitech Squeezebox 3 The SB3 runs off a regulated 5 VDC, 2 amp switching PS wall wart. Because it’s regulated, it puts out 5V regardless of fluctuations in the mains AC voltage. The SB3 uses the same DC connector as the Sound Smith phono preamp so DC power cord construction is the same. I just have to be careful that I don’t plug the 24V phono preamp DC cable into the 5V SB3. Patience and VOM measurements are critical when hooking this stuff up.
Here’s the SB3 challenge. There is no off the shelf 5V SLA. 6 and 12V are most common. So I run a 6V SLA (which puts out over 7V when fully charged) into a 5 volt regulator. Here’s another challenge. The SB3 pulls nearly 2 amps of current to drive a big bright LCD screen that can be read across the room. Most voltage regulators can’t deliver that much current. The LT1086-5 voltage regulator can, so it is used between the SLA and SB3. Here’s the third challenge. Because the SB3 is a network player, it’s meant to be left on all the time. How do we keep it on all the time and keep the battery charged? The solution is a 4PDT switch that is wired to power the SB3 with the wall wart PS and charge the SLA with a 6V charger when the switch is down. When the switch is flipped up the SB3 gets power from the regulated SLA and the wall wart PS and battery charger are disconnected from the circuit. Got that?
Oppo DV-970 Universal Player Battery power a DVD player? Not all of it, just the DAC chip. The Oppo uses a Cirrus DAC with voltage outputs. To improve the sound, I bypass the cheap opamps and connect the DAC’s outputs through DynamiCap coupling caps to high quality RCA jacks mounted to the back panel. I get lower output than the stock player, but much cleaner sound.
The Cirrus DAC runs off 5VDC. Normally the DAC is powered and regulated from the player’s switching power supply. The Oppo uses a pretty simple architecture so I was able to find and lift the 5V power connection between the PS and the DAC. I mounted a DC power jack on the back panel and wired it to the DAC chip’s power connection. The SLA battery, regulator and DC power cable is configured the same way as for the SB3 and plugged into the back panel power jack on the Oppo.
For the player to function properly, the Oppo needs to be off when SLA power is applied to the DAC, then turned on. When this sequence is followed, the player functions normally. When SLA power is off, the player should be turned off otherwise it acts erratically.
That’s it for now. I’m not going into what I did for my preamp. A little more complex because of the tubes being powered. Maybe later if someone is interested in building that preamp circuit.
The way I set up an outboard SLA battery PS is to connect the (+) and (–) of the battery to the center pins of a 5 amp DPDT switch ($4 at Radio Shack). Then connect the (+) and (–) from the SLA charger to the top of the switch and the (+) and (–) DC power cable to the bottom of the switch. When the switch is down, the battery is connected to the charger. When the switch is up, the battery is connected to the DC power cable which is connected to the component. No Duh Warning: DC requires correct polarity. Make sure all the positives are tied to same side of the switch. Mixing up (+) and (–) WILL result in battery and equipment damage.
To operate, flip the switch up to send battery power to the component. When you’re done using the component, flip the switch down to connect the battery to the charger. Here’s the caution with SLAs. Deep discharge significantly shortens battery life so it’s important to disconnect the battery from the component after every use. This is no different than turning tube gear off to preserve tube life. If you’re a solid state guy used to leaving everything on all the time, you’ll have to get into the habit of doing this.
Here’s how I set up SLA’s with some of my gear starting with the simplest to the most complex.
Sound Smith MMP4 Phono Preamp This phono preamp comes with an unregulated 24 VDC wall wart. When I measured the voltage at the connector it was over 30 volts with my AC mains voltage around 124VAC. At 115VAC the DC will be lower, probably around 24V. As long as the DC voltage is between 20 to 30 volts, the unit will operate just fine. To get 24V, I wired two 12V SLAs in series by connecting B1 (-) to B2 (+) so the voltage between B1 (+) and B2 (–) is 24V. The actual voltage when fully charged is around 27V, but that’s O.K. for this unit. I put together a DC power cord using microphone cable and the proper DC connector for the MMP4. I double and triple check that (+) goes to the center pin and (–) goes to the outer barrel of the connector. This setup uses a 24V charger rather than a standard 12V charger.
Logitech Squeezebox 3 The SB3 runs off a regulated 5 VDC, 2 amp switching PS wall wart. Because it’s regulated, it puts out 5V regardless of fluctuations in the mains AC voltage. The SB3 uses the same DC connector as the Sound Smith phono preamp so DC power cord construction is the same. I just have to be careful that I don’t plug the 24V phono preamp DC cable into the 5V SB3. Patience and VOM measurements are critical when hooking this stuff up.
Here’s the SB3 challenge. There is no off the shelf 5V SLA. 6 and 12V are most common. So I run a 6V SLA (which puts out over 7V when fully charged) into a 5 volt regulator. Here’s another challenge. The SB3 pulls nearly 2 amps of current to drive a big bright LCD screen that can be read across the room. Most voltage regulators can’t deliver that much current. The LT1086-5 voltage regulator can, so it is used between the SLA and SB3. Here’s the third challenge. Because the SB3 is a network player, it’s meant to be left on all the time. How do we keep it on all the time and keep the battery charged? The solution is a 4PDT switch that is wired to power the SB3 with the wall wart PS and charge the SLA with a 6V charger when the switch is down. When the switch is flipped up the SB3 gets power from the regulated SLA and the wall wart PS and battery charger are disconnected from the circuit. Got that?
Oppo DV-970 Universal Player Battery power a DVD player? Not all of it, just the DAC chip. The Oppo uses a Cirrus DAC with voltage outputs. To improve the sound, I bypass the cheap opamps and connect the DAC’s outputs through DynamiCap coupling caps to high quality RCA jacks mounted to the back panel. I get lower output than the stock player, but much cleaner sound.
The Cirrus DAC runs off 5VDC. Normally the DAC is powered and regulated from the player’s switching power supply. The Oppo uses a pretty simple architecture so I was able to find and lift the 5V power connection between the PS and the DAC. I mounted a DC power jack on the back panel and wired it to the DAC chip’s power connection. The SLA battery, regulator and DC power cable is configured the same way as for the SB3 and plugged into the back panel power jack on the Oppo.
For the player to function properly, the Oppo needs to be off when SLA power is applied to the DAC, then turned on. When this sequence is followed, the player functions normally. When SLA power is off, the player should be turned off otherwise it acts erratically.
That’s it for now. I’m not going into what I did for my preamp. A little more complex because of the tubes being powered. Maybe later if someone is interested in building that preamp circuit.
A major eye opener for me was sitting at Chris Hoff's (BPT) and hearing his amps a 100% off the grid.. I have never heard 0 noise floor through the system... ever.. and didn't even know that it was on until it played..
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